Quick shout:
To anyone in the northeast US area this coming April, there's a cool conference coming up,:
'Deep Green Resistance, Confronting Industrial Culture
How do we stop the mass destruction of our planet? We need a world without environmental devastation and social oppression: we need to confront civilization.
Join us for a weekend of exploring long range strategy, direct action, oppression, peak oil, natural living, and the deep questions of how to mend our hearts and sustain our spirits in these hard times. Good fun, great food, and the quiet woods also included.'
I'm thinking about checking it out. If you're around, maybe you should too.
'Deep Green Resistance, Confronting Industrial Culture
How do we stop the mass destruction of our planet? We need a world without environmental devastation and social oppression: we need to confront civilization.
Join us for a weekend of exploring long range strategy, direct action, oppression, peak oil, natural living, and the deep questions of how to mend our hearts and sustain our spirits in these hard times. Good fun, great food, and the quiet woods also included.'
I'm thinking about checking it out. If you're around, maybe you should too.
posted by Archangel at 8:36 PM
6 Comments:
I checked this out, but something in the Statement of Purpose caught my eye: "We need organized, political resistance." Hmm, I said. I wrote Lierre an email asking for clarification, and she directed me to an interview she had with Aric McBay over at inthewake. I was really turned off by her interview, particularly this part:
"And I've got a question here. If everyone knows that men are going to behave this way, what are we waiting for? Bullets are available now. Why are we accepting the unacceptable? We know who they are because they're already preying on us. And yeah, every perpetrator is someone's son, someone's father, someone's Mister Special. Get over it. Every perpetrator has to be stopped."
This was rather unsettling to me, to say the least, particularly because I'm male and I saw her generalizing to the extent of men = perpetrators.
So I wrote her an email in response, attempting to open a dialogue with her, sharing a little bit of my story and who I am, y'know, to see where she's coming from with this whole perpetrator/victim stuff. I have to say that I was astonished at how much she assumed about and projected onto me on the basis of the limited information I'd given her. I hate women, I'm a perpetrator and she's a victim, and on and on. I contemplated giving her my address in response, and telling her that if she wants to shoot me, this is where I live ... but I wasn't getting any joking vibes from her, and I thought that with provocation she just might actually do it.
Needless to say, I won't be attending this gathering, nor would I recommend any other male to do so. After all, it might be a death trap! rofl.
Hmm. You know, actually, she talked about this subculture as a rape subculture. It really might be a trap. O_O
Damn, it's so hard to play when people are so fucking serious, and wounded.
- Devin
True indeed, Devin.
I'm sympathetic, you know. I know that this culture is incredibly violent to women and to so many others, and I have heard from many people that the primi kids are prone to that especially. But i do wnat to work with others.
I agree that I'm not so down with the 'organized political resistance,' because I want nothing to do with politics in the usual sense. (People can redefine it however they want, and maybe that makes it something I'm more open to, but usually politics indicates things I hate about human interaction). I'm also not so down with organization insomuch as those tend to calcify and spend more energy maintaining themselves than tehy do engaging with whatever projects they want. I want people motivated by love and passion, not duty and platitudes.
That's really unfortunate that Aric was so unforgiving of someone she barely knew. Again, i can see where that comes from, and I am down with ending the culture of rape by all effective means.
If I go, it'd probably be to find a few like-minded folks I'd be interested in spending more time with. We'll see. Thanks in any event for the low-down.
I'm not sympathetic to her, although I can empathize a great deal. What really pissed me off was that she was playing this "I know what pain is and you don't" card -- without even knowing me or anything I've gone through. And she was so angry and so wounded that she found this a legitimate thing to do, indeed even to shoot someone over. I don't know where her anger is coming from because she's citing all of these statistics and preaching morals all of the time and not saying a damn thing about her own personal story. So how can I connect, particularly when I'm subhuman, a perpetrator who needs to be shot?
From In Defiance of Gravity, the essay by Tom Robbins:
"Norman N. Holland asked a similar question in Laughing: A Psychology of Humor, concluding that comedy is deemed inferior to tragedy primarily because of the social prevalence of narcissistic pathology. In other words, people who are too self-important to laugh at their own frequently ridiculous behavior have a vested interest in gravity because it supports their illusions of grandiosity. According to Professor Donald Kuspit, many people are unable to function without such illusions.
"Capitalism," wrote Kuspit, "encourages the pathologically grandiose self because it encourages the conspicuous consumption of possessions, which symbolize one's grandiosity." I would add that rigid, unquestioning allegiance to a particular religious or political affiliation is in much the same way also symptomatic of disease.
Ironically, it's this same malignant narcissism, revealing itself through arrogance, avarice, pique, anxiety, severity, defensive cynicism, and aggressive ambition, that is keeping the vainglorious out of their paradise. Among our egocentric sad sacks, despair is as addictive as heroin and more popular than sex, for the single reason that when one is unhappy one gets to pay a lot of attention to oneself. Misery becomes a kind of emotional masturbation. Taken out on others, depression becomes a weapon. But for those willing to reduce and permeate their ego, to laugh--or meow--it into submission, heaven on earth is a distinct psychological possibility."
This malignant narcissism is what I'm recovering from, and so I can really empathize with where she is. But for me this is a "disease" to be recovered from, not to be indulged in or called the "solution". This is how I understand what people call "civilization", in my mind -- this sort of mind/body, self/other, perpetrator/victim, right/wrong dichotomous split that comes when we're abused. Healing the Mind/Body Split is something I wrote exploring all of this, I think you might find it insightful.
Just to clarify: Aric McBay is male and is the author of inthewake.org, and Lierre Keith is female and one of the organizers of DGR.
I wish you well in finding like-minded people there, if you go. I guess that's a main reason I won't be going, is because I'm avoiding getting sucked into the gravity vortex of desperate and depressed narcissists, with whom I can far too easily relate. But I'm not going to be trying to convince anyone not to go, that's for damn sure. Do what makes you come alive.
- Devin
Here are some comments that I had regarding Devin's posts. In Devin's post, he writes, "I saw her generalizing to the extent of men = perpetrators." As far as I could tell, that was not what Lierre is saying. She is saying that perpetrators need to be stopped by any means necessary, which I agree with. Also, in the email dialog between Devin and Lierre, Devin states "I watch pornography," and Lierre points out the sexual violence inherent in this. Devin responds by saying that Lierre is assuming too much about him. As a man who has been called on sexist behavior, I would say a more productive response to someone saying your behavior or mindset is oppressive is to listen to them, seek out more information, be willing to change, admit mistakes, and take responsibility yourself for confronting other men's sexism. Guilt and defensiveness are not necessary; a willingness to be challenged and take responsibility for changing yourself is.
Devin also states "I don't group people into perpetrators/victims. I don't think that there are those with power and those without." I would highly recommend that Devin read the links Lierre sent him and listen carefully to the voices of those who don't have as much power in this culture, including women.
Overall, I think what's most important is effectively ending sexual violence and violence against women. What's going to help that happen is Lierre's writing about strategies and tactics for doing so, not Devin's defensiveness at being called on sexist behavior.
-Ian
Archangel and Devin,
I came to this blog after a male friend of mine (who is also a friend of Lierre's) told me that you were slandering her. I'd never heard of you before, and had my friend not pointed me here, I certainly would never have read what you wrote here about her.
That said, I'm appalled at what you are saying, and most especially by how disingenuous both of you are.
First, Devin, you quote Lierre as saying, "And I've got a question here. If everyone knows that men are going to behave this way, what are we waiting for? Bullets are available now. Why are we accepting the unacceptable? We know who they are because they're already preying on us. And yeah, every perpetrator is someone's son, someone's father, someone's Mister Special. Get over it. Every perpetrator has to be stopped."
Your response is: "This was rather unsettling to me, to say the least, particularly because I'm male and I saw her generalizing to the extent of men = perpetrators."
I find it odd and unsettling, to use your word, that you choose to identify with perpetrators. Lierre does not say that all men are perpetrators. You are much closer to saying that than she is. You joke (sort of) that you are afraid to give her your home address. I know Lierre. She has my home address. I've spent time with her, both alone and in public. I know men who have slept in the same room with her. None of us are afraid of her. Why? Because we're not perpetrators. We actively oppose victimization of women.
I shouldn't be surprised that later on this blog you call her narcissistic, since you've shown yourself to be seriously narcissistic with your comments here. You presume she's talking about little ol' you. She's talking about men who victimize women.
And Devin, you totally mischaracterize your exchange with Lierre. She sent me a draft of her comments to you before she sent them to you, to make sure she was saying things correctly. She was--incorrectly it ends up--presuming you were reachable. You say here that she makes the connection that men = perpetrators. But when you say this you are out and out lying. I know this, and you know this, and readers of this blog (however few they may be) need to know this. Here is what Lierre wrote to you. First your comment:
I'm a 19 year old transitioning into
adulthood, am I to be implicated as a rapist, as a
"perpetrator"?
Then Lierre's response:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's entirely up to you, Devin, and your behavior.
If you perpetrate--if you turn women into sexual
objects, if you do violence and violation to them,
then, yes, you are a perpetrator.
You have another option, though. You can decide to
cast your lot with the powerless, with those of us who
are defined by this culture as subhuman objects who
exist to be fucked. This is a political decision about
rejecting the power and privilege that patriarchy
offers you. You can also decide to reroute your
emotional and erotic impulses to justice and
connection and egalitarianism. That's in many ways a
harder, more personal task, but there are men who have
done it.
But it's your choice, just like there are white people
who don't want to be racist, and Germans who hid Jews
and tried to stop the Nazis. We all of us decide every
day what kind of people we're going to be.
***
Now my response: Hmmm, this does not read to me that she is either a) narcissistic, or b) saying all men are perpetrators.
You are either delusional or lying. Take your pick.
You wrote:
I watch pornography, am I to be shot? I'm definitely
struggling to know what it means to be male, what it
means to be human. But I don't feel like I'm
inherently wrong because I've been raised in this
culture.
She responded:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, it's your choice. If you think you have the
right to buy sexual access to women, then you are
deciding to be one kind of man. If you choose to
reject the misogyny that you've been socialized into,
you can be a decent human being.
****
She's very clear. Being male doesn't mean you should be shot. She is simply saying that you have a choice as to how you can behave.
How you twisted that to mean what you said here is beyond me.
The rest of your exchange with Lierre followed these same lines.
Now to Archangel.
You have some good rhetoric in a couple of places.
You write, "I am down with ending the culture of rape by all effective means." You also write, "I'm sympathetic, you know. I know that this culture is incredibly violent to women and to so many others."
But you have also written on your blog the following:
When I was in an English class in high school,
something came up to the effect of,' what would we do
if we only had an hour to live?' One of the kids said,
'I'd find someone to rape or something.' The teacher
of course rebuked him, and we all gave sort of looks
of shock or astonishment. And I'm sure that kid didn't
say that again, even if the thought crossed his mind.
But I was shocked at how much I sympathized with
that, that the same thought crossed my mind, and how
the only thing saving me ridicule with my lack of
courage to speak out when things cross my mind.
***
This is, to be honest, appalling. You sympathize with someone who would use his last hour to rape someone, to violate someone, to traumatize someone who will then have to live with that trauma for the rest of her life? That thought crossed your mind? You would consider that? Thank god you at least have a fear of ridicule (not so much as to keep you from posting it, though).
Okay, so you have sympathy for someone who would spend his last hour raping someone, and _Lierre_ is the narcissistic one? Jesus Christ. Okay, so you have sympathy for someone who would spend his last hour raping someone, and you are down with ending the culture of rape by all effective means? That's really messed up. Clearly you are not down with ending the culture of rape at all.
I can honestly say that if I had an hour to live, I would not spend it raping someone. I can honestly say I have never fantasized about raping someone. I can honestly say that the notion of participating in any sexual act with any other who was not fully willing and eager is repugnant to me. I can honestly say that my attitude is emotionally healthy, and I can also say that I am working as hard as I can to end this rape culture.
You also say in your essay that men's violence against women is "such a tangled, tough issue!" Maybe it's a tangled, tough issue for someone who sympathizes with wannabe rapists. Maybe it's a tough, tangled issue for those who would consider using their final hour to forcibly violate someone. For me, it's not a tangled, tough issue at all. It is something that needs to be stopped.
And one of the first steps toward stopping it is calling people on their misogynist bullshit. And that's precisely what I'm doing on both of you. Your attitudes are appalling and they are oppressive towards women. They are inexcusable.
If you want to look at stopping the rape culture, both of you need to look right in the mirror. That's where you need to start.
Derrick Jensen
Dear Ian, Lierre and Derrick,
I don't know what to say or where to begin.
I am trying very hard to understand what it is like to live in this culture as one of the subhuman others, a place occupied by women, by people of the wrong skin color or heritage, by those who cannot speak. I am trying very very hard to understand this, and am not trying to be resistant or deny the atrocities, but please understand that it can be very difficult when people who I don't know well, but people who I nonetheless respect and appreciate, are calling me on inappropriate behavior. I'm not asking to sanction sexist behavior, but only to have more gentleness when ecnouraging me to see the destructive and violent nature of certain ideas and outlooks. Maybe this is asking too much when we do live in such a violent and troubled time, and you may not have the time or energy to lead each person by the hand to seeing the awfulness of what's around us. That's fine, but please understand that I'm not resistant to being open to these issues, and rebuking me provokes a defensiveness that isn't necessarily indicative of how I might really feel.
To respond to something that's personally quite hurtful- Derrick, you quoted this section of another post of mine:
"When I was in an English class in high school, something came up to the effect of,' what would we do if we only had an hour to live?' One of the kids said, 'I'd find someone to rape or something.' The teacher of course rebuked him, and we all gave sort of looks of shock or astonishment. And I'm sure that kid didn't say that again, even if the thought crossed his mind. But I was shocked at home much I sympathized with that, that the same thought crossed my mind, and how the only thing saving me ridicule with my lack of courage to speak out when things cross my mind."
The subsequent lines were not quoted, lines which I think are important:
" And it shocked me, because i consider myself one of the good guys, you know? I didn't have any strong sexist influences in my family, no dads saying 'A women's place is prone, or in the kitchen. No one criticizing women in the workplace or chastising them for being assertive."
This post was something I was scared to write, because I know how troubling the implications are. It would have been far easier for me to ignore the fact that I've had these feelings and sentiments and not speak of them. But I don't know that that deals with the issue, and I think it doesn't allow people to come to terms with these thoughts and feelings. As I said, I don't think I'm one of the bad guys- I'm trying to understand the enormity of our crises, and deal with this openly and honestly. Does it trouble me that I felt this? Yes. But I think it's probably better to deal with these sentiments in open, hoonest and nonjudgmental ways, particularly when it comes to people who are already trying to be allies, rather than using harsh words than necessary to force the change of perspective.
I have a question: is the purpose of the rebuke to provoke a change in perspective on the individual rebuked? If that's most important, then would it be wrong to word the rebuke less harshly to encourage the change of perspective, or is it necessary to verbally chastise the offender? If so, to what end?
What I'm getting at is something I tried to convey later in that post Derrick quoted from: It can be very difficult not to be defensive when one is rebuked, and I think defensiveness is not conducive to a change in perspective. If the purpose of the rebuke is to make the other person feel bad, then rebuke away, as harshly as you feel. But if the purpose is to find a new ally or help along an existing ally, then having a bit of sensitivity to their background may be more useful.
Derrick, you also wrote:
"This is, to be honest, appalling. You sympathize with someone who would use his last hour to rape someone, to violate someone, to traumatize someone who will then have to live with that trauma for the rest of her life? That thought crossed your mind? You would consider that?
Thank god you at least have a fear of ridicule (not so much as to keep you from posting it, though). "
Yes, it is appalling, and fow what it's worth, as I posted it, I realized how far from that mindset I've come, since I couldn't recognize that sentiment any longer. Nevertheless, I did have it, and again, I don't think you're being fair or honest to take a shot at me for posting a sentiment I experienced years ago. The reason I posted isn't because I want to indulge secret fantasies of rape and get sanctioned for them. The reason I posted is because I'm trying to deal honestly with thoughts and feelings that I have experienced, thoughts and feelings I suspect others have too, and trying to encourage some personal reflection in myself and others to address this. You've made the point before that we're all victims of this culture in some ways. Certainly, that doesn't discount the fact that some of us suffer more forcefully, more immediately or more violently than others. But I wasn't born someone who thinks about raping someone before they die. There are strong cultural forces that make those sorts of ideas seem anything but repugnant. I'm trying to explore those and work past them, and as I have mentioned, I don't feel that rebukes are helpful to that end.
One of the things I guess I was looking for was nonjudgmental support when I posted this. Not sanctioning, as I said, not someone saying, 'hey dude, you should totally rape someone,' or even, 'hey dude, there's nothing wrong with fantasizing about that,' but instead someone or someones saying, 'it's great that you recognize how fucked up this culture is, and yet even in folks like you who understand it in important ways, there are these pernicious and insidious currents of violence and hatred. Keep working on it, and you can come to terms with these sentiments and move past them.'
Derrick writes:
"Okay, so you have sympathy for someone who would spend his last hour raping someone, and _Lierre_ is the narcissistic one? Jesus Christ. Okay, so you have sympathy for someone who would spend his last hour raping someone, and you are down with ending the culture of rape by all effective means? That's really messed up. Clearly you are not down with ending the culture of rape at all."
Again, I don't think that's fair- I don't think that my honest grappling with my own troubling feelings is indicative that I'm 'not down with ending the culture of rape at all.' Does the fact that I'm horrified of these sentiments mean nothing? Does the fact that I'm trying to hash them out mean nothing? Does having violent and hateful ideas at some point in one's life mean that I have no potential to be an ally? Even if I make it clear that it's deeply troubling to me, even if I've never acted these sentiments out (and never will), and for what it's worth, even if I have a hard time understanding them now, does that mean I am 'not down with ending the culture of rape at all'?
"I can honestly say that if I had an hour to live, I would not spend it raping someone. I can honestly say I have never fantasized about raping someone. I can honestly say that the notion of participating in any sexual act with any other who was not fully willing and eager is repugnant to me. I can honestly say that my attitude is emotionally healthy, and I can also say that I am working as hard as I can to end this rape culture. "
At this point in my life, I would not either spend my final hour raping or victimizing anyone. I have tremendous respect for you Derrick, and I know that I cannot speak to the painful and damaging experiences that you've gone through, and emerged from. I also understand that you may not have the ability or willingness to empathize with someone who shares in some ways the perspective of individuals who have victimized you. It would be unfair and inhuman for me to insist that you do have empathy for victimizers, even if only victimizers in thought not deed. I hope that you, and anyone reading this, might understand that having troubling and hateful thoughts does not, I think, make you a permanently tainted individual.
I also want to mention something which I don't think excuses thougths of rape, but which may provide a context for it. I recently read a book book called 'For Your Own Good,' written by Alice Miler, which maybe you all might be familiar with. One of the points she makes is that childhood is very violent in this culture, amd she suggests that individual's violent outlook and perspective usually make sense when looking into the context of how they were raised. When children are in abusive situations, in situations where they are victimized, and where they cannot express their frustrations, they have to find other ways of dealing with their trauma. In many cases, they end up doling out the same or similar abuse to those who are in a subordinate position to them, such as younger siblings, friends, the homeless or very typically their own children. She looks at some of very repugnant people, including Hitler and a child murderer, and demonstrates that their elements of their inhuman actions are prefigured in their inhuman upbringing. She's not trying to exonerate these people, but she is making the point that they were not born monsters, and that, if given a means by which to express their pain and come to terms with it, people can move past their violent, hateful preoccupations, and help break the cycle of violence. I am inspired by this, and would like to think that my attempts to openly deal with the fact that I could understand a classmate's fantasy of rape might help me better come to terms with how violent our culture is, how much it permeates even the well-meaning among us (I humbly count myself among them) and help me move past it.
Derrick writes:
"You also say in your essay that men's violence against women is "such a tangled, tough issue!" Maybe it's a tangled, tough issue for someone who sympathizes with wannabe rapists. Maybe it's a tough, tangled issue for those who would consider using their final hour to forcibly violate someone. For me, it's not a tangled, tough issue at all. It is something that needs to be stopped. "
I agree fully that it is something that needs to be stopped and immediately. I was thinking yesterday about this kid in my neighborhood who had a problem with me, and how for a whole school year, I was always anxious and scared that I'd see him on the street and he'd attack me. It's a horrible feeling, and not nearly as intense as the fear that many women feel of predation on a regular basis. It's disgusting and horrible, and that's not tangled and tough at all.
What I do think is tangled and tough is what we've been discussing here- how best to respond to people who recognize these horrors and are trying to deal with them? Do we rebuke strongly? Will that provoke defensiveness? If so, is that because the person still identifies with those sentiments, and thus deserves that rebuke? Is there any other way to lead men (and anyone in a position of relative power over others) to recognizing how wrong this is, and renouncing that power, and engaging in healthy human relationships? Is that letting them off the hook, so to speak, by not strongly rebuking them? Does that matter, if they become allies? Could it be that they become allies through encouragement, and then experience sorrow on their own for their violent ways? To what extent do victimizers deserve consideration or empathy? What if they are in fact victims themselves in another regard?
I have no doubt that the first and immediate consideration must be the health and well being of those being victimized. As you mention in Endgame, Derrick, the first obigation in the case of an abusive parent-child relationship, for example, is to get the child out of harm's way. Absolutely- we must make sure that women and children and victimized individuals of all sorts have a safe space to no longer be victimized.
But I think it's important not to burn bridges with potential allies, not to make it impossible for people to make amends. (I suspect anyway that we all have amends to make, and no one is blameless). That might mean giving them an 'out' so that they can retain some of their pride in a very challenging time for them, and not forcing them to stand naked before the tribunal, so to speak, in order to make amends. It's very hard for someone to change themselves completely in one fell swoop, so providing an opportunity for them to change on terms they are more comfortable with seems vital in creating lasting transformation. (The necessity of safe havens for victims, of course, being not up for negotiation).
But again- to what extent is that right, if at all? Is that going too easy on them? I dunno- This is what I mean by it being a tangled and tough issue.
Derrick writes:
"If you want to look at stopping the rape culture, both of you need to look right in the mirror. That's where you need to start."
Absolutely. For what it's worth, that was what the post was intended as- written self-reflection and dialogue, in an attempt to work past my hindrances.
I hope that you all will accept my sincerity, Lierre, Ian and Derrick. I really am trying to be an ally, and though it has been a charged interaction, I hope it has been fruitful in some ways. Best to each of you.
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