Masculinity and violence
I may lose some people with this, but hopefully not.
I looked into the organizer of the Deep Green Resistance, Lierre Kieth, in an interview here
There's one part that really made me think:
I think what women are getting at here is a very real fear of how men from rape-cultures behave when the social order breaks down. Which is that they become public predators. They're already assaulting women in private. But when civic society melts down, like during wartime, men rape women en mass. Women are assessing the situation realistically when they respond with fear to the idea of civilization coming apart.
When I was in an English class in high school, something came up to the effect of,' what would we do if we only had an hour to live?' One of the kids said, 'I'd find someone to rape or something.' The teacher of course rebuked him, and we all gave sort of looks of shock or astonishment. And I'm sure that kid didn't say that again, even if the thought crossed his mind. But I was shocked at home much I sympathized with that, that the same thought crossed my mind, and how the only thing saving me ridicule with my lack of courage to speak out when things cross my mind. And it shocked me, because i consider myself one of the good guys, you know? I didn't have any strong sexist influences in my family, no dads saying 'A women's place is prone, or in the kitchen. No one criticizing women in the workplace or chastising them for being assertive.
I did, however, watch lots of tv and movies, and I think that's where the cultural current came from. It's so hard to try to deal with these issues, and I do know that anti-patriarchy discussion groups didn't work for me. I mean, I spent a lot of time learning about queer issues and women's issues and race issues when I got to college, because I wanted to be an informed activist and do the right thing, so I had maybe a bit of a head start on others in dealing with personal biases. But I also feel like so much of those interactions within activist communities are about guilt and trying to force intragroup change as a result of impotence in the wider world. And I'm not saying small-scale change is worthless; instead, I'm saying maybe the white male activist going to patriarchy and white privilege discussion groups is not the person to demonize. Or maybe they are, since I've heard a lot of people complain about activist communities being rife with sexual assault.
It's tough, because I think people get defensive when they're told they're acting the wrog way. Far better is providing an environment where they can discover their transgressions on their own, and feel like it's they, not anyone else, whoa re prompting change.
There's a section in the Bushido, 'The Code of the Samurai' that talks about correcting your disciples or inferiors or what have you. And they say that it must be done in such a way that you make the person think that the change is their idea, and give them an opportunity to change without losing face. I think that's so right on- I feel like so much of our interaction in this realm is about punishment and humiliation firstly and secondarily about encouraging righteous behavior. That's backwards! If we really do want to encourage different behaviors, then humiliating someone into it is both vindictive (and evil), and probably less effective overall, because once the pressure is removed, they may change back (to driving SUVs, to demeaning women, whatever) because they feel like that is a part of their self they're regaining.
Back to male violence- it's tough, I think, but I suspect that the answer cannot be rationalized and made sense of. What is there to make sense of? It's one of those things for me that I can't over-think to escape, and can only step out, and let it fade to relative unimportance, like spiraling depression. What I mean is, I think if we listen carefully to ourselves, to our bodies and emotions, and not to the rational thoughts that cloud our clarity, we can move away from that cycle of oppression and guilt, and work toward interacting on a more human basis, fully acknowledging and embracing people's experiences and being.
Maybe this doesn't work for everyone, and maybe I'm naive and projecting what I think is the case for me onto everyone, including recalcitrant people who will not change. But maybe for some people, avoiding patriarchy and male oppression (and other oppressions, too) is about opening ourselves up to empathy and interacting in a more genuinely human way.
It's such a tangled, tough issue!
I looked into the organizer of the Deep Green Resistance, Lierre Kieth, in an interview here
There's one part that really made me think:
I think what women are getting at here is a very real fear of how men from rape-cultures behave when the social order breaks down. Which is that they become public predators. They're already assaulting women in private. But when civic society melts down, like during wartime, men rape women en mass. Women are assessing the situation realistically when they respond with fear to the idea of civilization coming apart.
When I was in an English class in high school, something came up to the effect of,' what would we do if we only had an hour to live?' One of the kids said, 'I'd find someone to rape or something.' The teacher of course rebuked him, and we all gave sort of looks of shock or astonishment. And I'm sure that kid didn't say that again, even if the thought crossed his mind. But I was shocked at home much I sympathized with that, that the same thought crossed my mind, and how the only thing saving me ridicule with my lack of courage to speak out when things cross my mind. And it shocked me, because i consider myself one of the good guys, you know? I didn't have any strong sexist influences in my family, no dads saying 'A women's place is prone, or in the kitchen. No one criticizing women in the workplace or chastising them for being assertive.
I did, however, watch lots of tv and movies, and I think that's where the cultural current came from. It's so hard to try to deal with these issues, and I do know that anti-patriarchy discussion groups didn't work for me. I mean, I spent a lot of time learning about queer issues and women's issues and race issues when I got to college, because I wanted to be an informed activist and do the right thing, so I had maybe a bit of a head start on others in dealing with personal biases. But I also feel like so much of those interactions within activist communities are about guilt and trying to force intragroup change as a result of impotence in the wider world. And I'm not saying small-scale change is worthless; instead, I'm saying maybe the white male activist going to patriarchy and white privilege discussion groups is not the person to demonize. Or maybe they are, since I've heard a lot of people complain about activist communities being rife with sexual assault.
It's tough, because I think people get defensive when they're told they're acting the wrog way. Far better is providing an environment where they can discover their transgressions on their own, and feel like it's they, not anyone else, whoa re prompting change.
There's a section in the Bushido, 'The Code of the Samurai' that talks about correcting your disciples or inferiors or what have you. And they say that it must be done in such a way that you make the person think that the change is their idea, and give them an opportunity to change without losing face. I think that's so right on- I feel like so much of our interaction in this realm is about punishment and humiliation firstly and secondarily about encouraging righteous behavior. That's backwards! If we really do want to encourage different behaviors, then humiliating someone into it is both vindictive (and evil), and probably less effective overall, because once the pressure is removed, they may change back (to driving SUVs, to demeaning women, whatever) because they feel like that is a part of their self they're regaining.
Back to male violence- it's tough, I think, but I suspect that the answer cannot be rationalized and made sense of. What is there to make sense of? It's one of those things for me that I can't over-think to escape, and can only step out, and let it fade to relative unimportance, like spiraling depression. What I mean is, I think if we listen carefully to ourselves, to our bodies and emotions, and not to the rational thoughts that cloud our clarity, we can move away from that cycle of oppression and guilt, and work toward interacting on a more human basis, fully acknowledging and embracing people's experiences and being.
Maybe this doesn't work for everyone, and maybe I'm naive and projecting what I think is the case for me onto everyone, including recalcitrant people who will not change. But maybe for some people, avoiding patriarchy and male oppression (and other oppressions, too) is about opening ourselves up to empathy and interacting in a more genuinely human way.
It's such a tangled, tough issue!
posted by Archangel at 9:17 PM
11 Comments:
"... I also feel like so much of those interactions within activist communities are about guilt and trying to force intragroup change as a result of impotence in the wider world."
Haha. Right on!
I grew up an activist liberal, in a Unitarian Universalist church. And damn, am I ever glad to be rid of that. I call activism "the process of convincing others to change so we don't have to." The in-fighting and "I'm more aware [read: guilty] and self-righteous than you" in activist groups is just sickening. Not to mention the sheer amount of powerlessness and despair, and the extreme amount of guilt that people heap upon themselves in order to overcome their inevitable burnout.
Activism makes me want to hurl.
This is why I hold Derrick Jensen's work very loosely. He has a powerful narrative, but his activism work seems to me to be coming from a place of despair. As I quoted Tom Robbins, in the previous post: "Among our egocentric sad sacks, despair is as addictive as heroin and more popular than sex, for the single reason that when one is unhappy one gets to pay a lot of attention to oneself. Misery becomes a kind of emotional masturbation. Taken out on others, depression becomes a weapon."
I'm staying way the hell away from guilt and despair. Seems to me this despair is what's at the heart of all this violence anyway. All of this seems to have very very little to do with masculinity.
- Devin
Hey Devin,
I definitely have seen and experienced misery as emotional masturbation, and depression used as a weapon, almost as if the depressed is saying, "I'm depressed about the state of the world, and you should be ashamed that you're not, too."
I still really feel for Jensen and where he's coming from, and I think one can be a complex enough individual that life can be really, really good, and really, really miserable and desperate.
I have a hard time thinking about these things clearly, though, because I'm still too close to it all (misery, desperation, depression, etc.). I try to stay away from the fire, since I can't quite dance with it yet without getting burned.
I find the best thing for me to do in situations like these is to avoid them, and avoid forcing myself to deal with them. I can function without this, and there's no reason, certainly not guilt or obligation, for me to hash these thigns out in my mind and heart again and again, when it's not going anywhere. For me, I just have to learn to co-exist with this all without letting anything consume me, rather than trying to vanquish it.
Coolio
Personally I can't accept that all men are potential rapists. I know thats the feminist line. I don't fantasize about that. It doesn't turn me on.
I think though that since some men are potentail rapists its good to have some strong men around to protect their communities.
I also think there is a need for shaping male character in constructive ways by elders.
I like your code of the samuri thing. I think thats on the right track.
I just found your blog and this post...I am curious about what you said about raping "someone" (since this post started out with a quote about men raping women, am I right in assuming this would be a woman even though your classmate used the term "someone"?). I don't understand where this comes from...why would you have wanted to rape a woman or anyone else for that matter? I don't understand that on a basic level. Why wouldn't you think "I'd have sex with someone"? I am asking these questions so that I can better understand, despite feeling disturbed by your admission even while I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are exploring how people change. I am really interested in how people change too.
Personally, I never thought that activist groups were intended to induce guilt (maybe that is the result?), I thought it was a place for the oppressed people to share their experiences and enlighten those who are culturally priviledged.
Hi Ted,
Thanks for visiting! I don't know if all men are potential rapists, or if that's the feminist line- is it? I mean, anyone's a ptoential rapist, right? But the fact is in this culture, a huge swath of women are raped by men, and another huge swath fight off rape. The numbers often talked about, 1 in 4 raped, 1/5 fending off rape, combined= 45% of women being at least attempted victims, is an absurdly and unacceptably huge problem. Via anecdotal evidence, some people suspect it's even higher.
I agree that shaing constructive male (and female) character by elders is essential, and something we're missing so deeply in this world, by and large, anyway. I think we're really rootless and floating around trying to impart wisdom, but mostly missing it ourselves, leaving each generation to try to figure it out for themselves. I know you've been exploring lots of things beyond green anarchy, anti-civ, primitive stuff, and may disagree, but I suspect that our estrangement from place, from the natural world, is close to or at the heart of that groundlessness.
Hi emma,
Thanks, too, for visiting!
I'm also disturbed by that admission! And you're right- that someone, as implied, is a woman. Why? I don't know. As I talked about this with my partner, I wasn't just appalled (the expected super-ego type reaction), but also dumbfounded and confused. I certainly don't want to rape anyone, man or woman, and recounting it, hearing myself say it, made it seem all the more strange. I really don't know the answer. I think what I was getting at is that it's part of the cultural current we live in, and the idea of seizing power and overcoming others (whether they are women, the uppity lower classes, a resistant biological community, an opposing idea, whatever) is really a part of our cultural mindset. I think civilization is very fundamentally about control and the civilized feeling compelled to exercise it, and to meet with force anything that eludes that control. I see that in all sorts of actions, whether exterminating indigenous, massively deforesting, or fighting the war on poverty. And I think being raised to see the world as mine to use as I best see fit, the idea of rape follows organically. That's not a good thing! I want to change that cultural current, but I think one of the important first steps is to look honestly at it, and that means, too, acknowledging the times where that's not the case. But also being up front and not in denial of the times when it is.
I feel like I may be rambling, so I apologize. I do appreciate your qquestions and wnating to probe further- that's important. I just don't know how much sense I can make of it all. As I mentioned to Devin, when I think too much about it, I realize my proximity and lose the clarity of distance, if that makes sense.
And as for activists intending guilt- probably not, or at least not most of them. Activists i think are mostly earnest folks who want to make things better. But one of the ways I've experienced that is an emphasis on transforming self and community. This sounds good and sometimes is, butsometimes also means that there's a tremendous peer pressure to act in the 'correct' way, even if that correct way doesn't make sense for the individual, or is hard for them.
I guess it comes down to what sort fo assumptions one has about those they interact with. If one assumes they are trouble, then strong proscriptions are necessary to keeping them in line and doing the right thing. If one assumes they're basically good, then the transgressions matter less, and you trust that the righteous actions make sense and that their good sense will get them there. For a consequentialist, either path is the same- if you end up not eating meat, say, or buying sweatshop goods, who cares whether you did it joyfully or begrudgingly (via guilt)? For someone not quite so consequentialist, the intention of the actor is deeply important, and guilt and obligation only impede the formation of viable webs of relationships.
Hope that makes sense/
I can sympathise with all of this Archangel.
I always find the scariest parts of this mess that we're in are those feelings that you know you feel, but that you don't really mean, or wouldn't really carry out (or would you..?)
I found out all about control and numbing, and how deep these things operate, after I completely trampled over a girlfriend's feelings last year. I didn't feel bad about it until I was made to face it. I didn't realise what I was doing until I thought it through fully. Although, some part of me knew what I was doing all along. It was quite worrying after - I'm not a nasty person.
I never blame "me" though, me being my essence on the deepest level, I just wonder why these things happen, what leads to them, what made me able to step on someone's feelings without immediately feeling bad myself, what numbed me.
I always find relationships and anything similar to be overlooked when we discuss stuff around here. I think all the worse stuff comes out during relationships, a lot of the stuff we talk about, but hidden very well. My view is simply that sexual repression creates dangerous people, and that sexual repression is massively widespread in industrial society. Again, repressing the strongest urge that someone can feel is extremely dangerous.
I think the concern is a real one, because men in war time do act in despicable, deplorable ways. We have to undo the warlike ways that encourage this. Moreover, we must deconstruct all "Narratives of Nature" that try to imply that these things are somehow "written in the genes". That kind of rhetoric is extremely reactionary, and has begun to poison any kind of primitivist discourse.
Here's a quote from Wilhelm Reich regarding the sexually repressed man: "He is helpless, craves authority, incapable of freedom, is armoured and wants to be told what to do, for he is full of contradictions and cannot rely upon himself."
I think that one sentence alone shows us the root of a great deal of our problems.
Hi again Archangel,
Thanks for your response...I took some time right now to read through some of your previous posts and found them really interesting and thought-provoking. You mention Derrick Jensen a few times and he is a favorite of mine, the first and best author I have read on the subject.
I agree that civilization is about control. I've thought a lot about what it must be like to be a male in this culture, and I've learned that I don't share that same desire to control people that civilized males often express. I'm not trying to imply that there are straight lines that can be drawn, i.e., all men want to control and all women want to get along. But I honestly can't relate to this feeling of wanting to rape someone, or of feeling so distant from my feelings that I don't care about causing someone pain, as another poster mentioned.
It's really scary for me to read that men - especially men like you who consider themselves one of the "good guys", and you certainly do seem like one of the good guys - fantasize about raping women, even if it was a long time ago. It makes me feel frightened and unsafe and vulnerable. At times, I don't know how to operate in such a world, other than to do my best to protect myself physically and hope nothing like that ever happens to me. It really shakes me to my core. Civilization is a scary place.
Anyway, thanks for your posts, I'll be checking back.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I would rape someone in a desperate situation. I'm saying that I know the feeling of contemplating it, and I know the strange feeling that seeps around my body when I contemplate it.
I would never actually be able to go through with it, because it would tear me apart, and just because I wouldn't be able to exercise that amount of evil over someone without hating myself. But there are a lot of other guys who have gone through a lot more desensitising than me, and unfortunately it is this kind of desensitising that has become a necessity in our upbringings, that causes this numbness to the pain of others.
I think deep down everyone knows it's wrong. People who do these kind of things are lying to themselves about their reasons, like "it's for their own good" or something like that. Jensen wrote a lot about this kind of thing too.
I believe we have to confront these feelings and urges honestly, and I've been doing this since my late teens. Repressing these feelings just because "they're wrong" will not make them go away. We have to understand what has made us like this. Men do not naturally rape and control, it is as simple as that. The urge to control and abuse is symptom of trauma or abuse, and it is this abuse we need to stop.
It's really interesting hearing some women's reactions to this. I think partners/girlfriends can play one of the most important roles in healing these problems by making men realise what true love really is, and what control really is. But it is, as you originally said Archangel, a tough tangled issue that needs a lot of thought and caution.
Dan and Emma,
Thanks for continuing the discussion!
I appreciate your honesty, Emma, and understand in broad strokes how scary this must be. I thank you that you appreciate my posts and my sense of myself as a 'good guy,' and that you have proceeded along in this discussion without accusation or attack. Trying to be hones about these things is very hard, and I appreciate that, despite your discomfort, you are trying to address me and my sentiments in a human way. It really is appreciated.
And I want to second Dan's sentiments- it's nto so much that I fantasized about it, in the sense that it's something that turned me on and seemed like a good idea to do. It's more that the idea has passed my mind, but as you point out, even that fact is deeply troubling. Why is that? I don't know. I think it does have a lot to do, again echoing Dan, with growing up with trauma and abuse, and seeing control as a way out of that, maybe, or at least acceptable given the circumstances of our upbringing.
And I also agree that the lines can't easily be drawn, but I suspect taht you're right in that men experience these tendencies toward control perhaps more often or more forcefully than women.
And thank you for your posts!
Dan- great quote! One of the things I wanted to get across in my initial post, but didn't, is that just saying 'it's wrong' won't make it go away, and these feelings have to be addressed. I wanted to say that, even if this kid in my class never again admitted to those feelings, they'd probably still be harboring, and maybe even gathering steam from being unaddressed.
I think that the fear of addressing secrets makes them more powerful, almost always, no matter how awful we think the secret is. Concealing it distorts our perceptions of its magnitude, and it's better, I think, to have it out and open, able to be dealt with, than festering beneath the surface, causing perpetual stress.
And I agree about partners helping in healing- mine didn't even bat an eye when I told her about how teh idea of rape had crossed my mind in that context, and I was honestly afraid to bring it up. But I did, and she supported me, and added that she's felt a similar urge to harm and hurt, and it's scared her too. I think it's so vital to have a support network that's unconditionally accepting, even through the bad stuff, and to remind us that we each have inherent self-worth that's not subject to withdrawal.
Again,thanks a lot for continuing this conversation!
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